This is the keto thread

dresden · Feb 29, 2016

After a handful of requests, I've finally decided to make a keto thread. Shit has been overwhelmingly transformative for me and several friends who have done it. BuSo is about extracting maximum value from your efforts - outwork, outsmart, out earn your competitors. I've noticed a lot of IM people struggle with weight and health, energy -- whatever. It's common.

That's why I like keto the most. It's not some quick fad diet that crushes your productivity and has you juicing for that beach body for 2 weeks.

I've done it now around, maybe 8 months. I'm still losing and I feel better than ever. And it's fucking easy.

The gist is: low carbs, medium protein, high fat.

By low, medium, high - I mean that that should be the allocation of calories for each macro. My most effective ratio seems to be 65% of calories from fat, 25% from protein, 10% from carbs.

Eat meat, fats and veggies - avoid carbs. It's that easy.

Generally you'll want to stick to 20 or less carbs per day. That is net carbs, which means if the shit has fiber in it, you can subtract it from the total. Most nutritional value labels do this for you.

You're going to feel like shit for a week. Real bad. Headaches, body aches, basic flu like symptoms. Especially if you're a sugar-whore-beast like I was. Get some bouillon and make tea several times a day. Get some lo-salt or whatever and make sure to up your sodium / potassium intake. Take magnesium before bed (be careful on which type or you'll have thunder-diarhrea). You'll feel better pretty quickly.

So what kind of shit do you eat:

Here is a pretty dope recipe list from a girl over on /r/keto

I eat a lot of the same shit for cycles.

Breakfast: eggs, bacon, bulletproof coffee (kind of, i do espresso w/ coconut oil)

Lunch: Taco bowl (ground beef, shredded cheese, lettuce, salsa, taco seasoning)

Dinner: chicken thighs fried in grass fed butter, broccoli

That type of thing. And I crush snacks all day: pickles, olives, pork rinds, dark chocolate, string cheese, slim jims...

Do this shit - keep it legit and you'll drop weight like crazy. You'll probably do 5-10lbs in your first week (mostly water), but then I've been able to hang onto 2.5-4lbs a week since with minimal exercise (only lately been going to the gym and getting swole AF).

Questions?

MeEatBrains · Feb 29, 2016

Heh I laughed when start reading the thread because I remembered a numerous situations in my past where I was in ketosis. Some of them very comical. Nice initiative man! Let me chime in.

I must say that puting your body in the state of ketosis can be very beneficial (if done right) while striving to lose fat rapidly, but it also can be very dangerous for individuals who does not have the proper fit.

A lot of people can not distinguish low carb diet from keto diet. I will share some of my experience for those who want to do it, but never done it before. I am talking about particularly the state of ketosis. We are talking zero carb days for a prolonged period of time.

Alright, by fit individuals I mean, people who already stressed their organism with various dieting and training routines numerous times on regular basis for at least 6 months. For me there are 2 main aspects that must be taken in consideration. First the preparation phase, and second the execution phase.

I've seen numerous examples of inexperienced people who try to do this kind of stuff and most of them failed very miserably. First their psyche collapsed, mainly because of the lack of carbs (the insulin level drops very quick), also the new feelings that they never experienced before which constantly hit them in waves can be quite unpleasant.

The results are: change of mood, lack of concentration, anxiety, neurosis etc. It's like a woman in her period.

Second, their body start to act unusual. Mainly because of the high fat intake. That causes high stress on the excretory organs. Discomfort and stomach upsets are not unusual. Also the kidneys are on great pressure during the ketosis state, in which Ketoacidosis is present.

On the execution phase, a lot of people are messing up only because they can't keep the nutrition like it was planned. When they reduce or completely stop the carbs, the glycogen reserves are reduced or exhausted, the glucose level are lowered as well. When this happens the brain start to send signals for hunger, and here is the breaking point, most of the people start to increase the intake of food which consist of fats/proteins while they think that everything is ok as long as they don't eat carbs, the reality is they are breaking the calorie intake ratio, and the whole concept in general.

In the next month I am going to start training again, now I am enjoying the longest break from sports in my life. I guess I will post some stuff in this thread in future, but first I am going to start with low carb diet (2 months at least) then, some carb rotation for few months, and if everything is ok by August I will go full keto for few days.

dresden · Feb 29, 2016

MeEatBrains said:
I must say that puting your body in the state of ketosis can be very beneficial (if done right) while striving to lose fat rapidly, but it also can be very dangerous for individuals who does not have the proper fit.

Well, not really. The idea of having a proper fit... as long as you don't have any underlying issues (diabetes, severe kidney issues, etc) you're fine. You'd know if you fall into this camp. Talk to a doctor.

MeEatBrains said:
A lot of people can not distinguish low carb diet from keto diet. I will share some of my experience for those who want to do it, but never done it before. I am talking about particularly the state of ketosis. We are talking zero carb days for a prolonged period of time.

Disagree. Most people will be firmly into ketosis with sub 40 or 50 carbs a day. Not 0. 0 is not a requirement, and not even recommended (aside from various induction phase protocols). You need some calories (5-10, maybe 15% from carbs).

MeEatBrains said:
First their psyche collapsed, mainly because of the lack of carbs (the insulin level drops very quick), also the new feelings that they never experienced before which constantly hit them in waves can be quite unpleasant.

True. Much of obesity is related to decreased insulin sensitivity, and hormonal imbalances.

MeEatBrains said:
Also the kidneys are on great pressure during the ketosis state, in which Ketoacidosis is present.

No, dude. Just no. DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis) is very very very distinct from NK (nutritional ketosis). "A ketogenic diet usually has the body at around 1-8 mmol/L of ketone bodies, whereas DKA is usually >20 mmol/L." -- DKA is generally expressed through a self reinforcing feedback loop. NK does not (or has not been shown to) encourage anything of the like. If you do not have diabetes currently, your chances of developing DKA type shit is like, 0.000001%

Edit: That said, do your kidneys a solid and drink a fuckload of water. Throw in some C, b6 or carnitine if you're feeling froggy.

eliquid · Feb 29, 2016

sounds a lot like Atkins

hehejo · Mar 1, 2016

Oh look, a marketer falling for other marketers crap...

Instead of chasing the latest fad diet, just eat healthy foods and count your calories if you want to gain or lose weight. If you want to lose weight you need a caloric deficit, not restrict the foods that you are eating.

Losing and gaining weight is a solved problem. It's not hard to do and there is no need for weird diets.

dresden · Mar 1, 2016

hehejo said:
Oh look, a marketer falling for other marketers crap...

Instead of chasing the latest fad diet, just eat healthy foods and count your calories if you want to gain or lose weight. If you want to lose weight you need a caloric deficit, not restrict the foods that you are eating.

Losing and gaining weight is a solved problem. It's not hard to do and there is no need for weird diets.

lol. what product did I buy? health? weight loss? mental focus? if you think rubber bag theory (calories in, calories out) is the be all end all, you're either buying 'marketing' or being disingenuous. metabolic syndromes are real, and addressing hormonal fluctuations / resistance is real. fuck outta here.

Andrewkar · Mar 1, 2016

If you have diabetes the first life saving decision you should make is to lower your carb intake. No doubts about that (it's tested, and it works, period). At this point however you will face academic medicine approach, which is completely different (and very wrong). Your GP will never tell you to cut on carbs, or god forbid lower insulin injections. GP's and our modern medicine in general, is driven by money.

Diabetic ketosis and nutritional ketosis are two COMPLETELY different things (with a much different genesis). One is life threatening, another could be life saving. Sure, nutritional ketosis taken to extremes will result in a huge waste of tissue. After rapid weight loss (fat but also muscles, and bone unfortunately), you will see at some point your teeth decaying. That's a STRONG signal to get more carbs and protein, and right away.

I would advice anyone who wants to play with his/her metabolism by means of nutrition, to first do at least basic panel and most importantly to get an experienced doctor or other health practitioner who have good understanding and experience in the subject.

Anyway, @dresden nice post man. Let's promote some healthy and genes encoded lifestyle here :wink:

hehejo said:
Oh look, a marketer falling for other marketers crap...

Instead of chasing the latest fad diet, just eat healthy foods and count your calories if you want to gain or lose weight. If you want to lose weight you need a caloric deficit, not restrict the foods that you are eating.

Losing and gaining weight is a solved problem. It's not hard to do and there is no need for weird diets.

Nope man, it doesn't work like that. Human organism isn't a linear system where you can measure anything by simply "gets in and gets out".

I have a guy who was 115kg (around 240), very fat. One advice I gave him: stop eating rubbish, limit your carb intake to 40 grams a day (I mean digestible carbs), eat as much fat and proteins (animal proteins) as you desire.

The guy ate TONS of lard, eggs, butter and fatty meats (any meat actually). He was SOOO... freaking hungry that he ate 250 grams of lard at one seating, plus meat. That gives us around 2250 kcals just from fat, at just one meal. He got 3-4 meals a day like that, how many kclas is that? :wink:

Now, after 11 months he is at 86 kg (180). Saturday he was running 10K, day after 24K. He need to start some weight lifting becosue his ratio lean mass to fat is getting worse now, but still...

At some point his weight normalised at around 100kg. Advice? Get more carbs. He did and that and now he is at 86kg.

Here is nice case study http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/

Anyway, whatever you do really test yourself! Metabolic games can be dangerous, to some of us.

hehejo · Mar 1, 2016

dresden said:
lol. what product did I buy? health? weight loss? mental focus? if you think rubber bag theory (calories in, calories out) is the be all end all, you're either buying 'marketing' or being disingenuous. metabolic syndromes are real, and addressing hormonal fluctuations / resistance is real. fuck outta here.

I don't know which products you bought or didn't, but there is a large marketing machine behind the whole low carbs fad.

Calories in/out is the most important thing by far for weight control. The other things are micromanagement and unless you are a pro-athlete it doesn't matter (as long as you get enough protein which a lot of people are lacking).

dresden · Mar 1, 2016

hehejo said:
Calories in/out is the most important thing by far for weight control. The other things are micromanagement and unless you are a pro-athlete it doesn't matter (as long as you get enough protein which a lot of people are lacking).

so anyway - anyone have any questions on how to do this thing?

builder · Mar 1, 2016

dresden said:
so anyway - anyone have any questions on how to do this thing?

dresden said:
I've done it now around, maybe 8 months. I'm still losing and I feel better than ever.

dresden said:
You'll probably do 5-10lbs in your first week (mostly water), but then I've been able to hang onto 2.5-4lbs a week since with minimal exercise
Questions?

How many pounds did you lose altogether? Did you measure your body fat percentage before and after?

dresden · Mar 1, 2016

builder said:
How many pounds did you lose altogether? Did you measure your body fat percentage before and after?

I have cycled on and off because of heavy travel (and drinking, yay). I'm not a good yardstick though, another guy who has been doing it with me has lost 106 in that time. I've lost a lot, but that not that level. Looks like I'll be there by Mid may - june though, barring any substantial stalls or stupidity.

And bodyfat measure - no. But I am starting to look svelt. I'd fuck me now.

Potatoe · Mar 1, 2016

@dresden What's your caloric intake like when you're losing 2.5 - 4 lbs a week? In my limited experience, very low sugar and carbs makes it so much easier to eat at a deficit haha. Also curious what your calories were like before you got started with keto. Cheers!

dresden · Mar 1, 2016

j a m e s said:
@dresden What's your caloric intake like when you're losing 2.5 - 4 lbs a week? In my limited experience, very low sugar and carbs makes it so much easier to eat at a deficit haha. Also curious what your calories were like before you got started with keto. Cheers!

MFP tells me ~1600 per day. I was a fat fuck eating 4,000-5,000 per day min with beer included. Maybe more. And not leaving my chair.

Losses have slowed for me a bit, but I'm pushing weights pretty hard and my dick is getting bigger by the hour (the only true measure of weight loss for a morbidly obese fat man). Losing like 3" of fat from the base = (golden key) papa bless. they don't want you to the have that full shaft, trust me.

Potatoe · Mar 1, 2016

Shit man, good job! Yeah I feel like if more rubenesque fellas knew about the fringe benefit, there would be a lot less of them.

MeEatBrains · Mar 3, 2016

Well mate, obviously we disagree on some points. May be because I am an athlete with years of experience, and in my circles everyone is doing the things pretty hardcore and has quite different look on all the concepts compared to enthusiasts.
Anyway good initiative!

hehejo · Mar 3, 2016

Dresden, just out of curiosity.
You have been on keto for a while, have you had your cholesterol levels checked?

dresden · Mar 4, 2016

MeEatBrains said:
May be because I am an athlete with years of experience, and in my circles everyone is doing the things pretty hardcore and has quite different look on all the concepts compared to enthusiasts.

That's a logical fallacy, in terms of argument... but touche. Different strokes for different folks. All that matters is that we're all doing something to better ourselves. Good spirit!

hehejo said:
Dresden, just out of curiosity.
You have been on keto for a while, have you had your cholesterol levels checked?

Yes - my entire panel is vastly improved from being 100lbs overweight last year.

Ryuzaki · Mar 5, 2016

I was taking the typical internet journey and strangely enough was led straight to keto stuff. I thought I'd add a few resources for anyone interested:

- https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq
Super summary of the entire topic

- https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aiHSPoto_YqsNTDvL-g60nytMnyH-CJcCbiAx1IEUYM/edit
"Keto in a Nutshell"

- https://www.charliefoundation.org/explore-ketogenic-diet/explore-1/introducing-the-diet
"How many ketones to eat per kg of body weight"

Admittedly I only scrolled through those but am about to read both and give this concept a fair shot. Of course, you can always go to the sub-reddit above and order by "top" and learn more and more.

Andrewkar · Mar 7, 2016

My advice to anyone, if you are serious and truly interested in the subject, get those books first (in this order):

You have to know how human organism works so unfortunately some basic biochemistry knowledge is necessary. You want to know how basic metabolic pathways works, otherwise you are taking info from other people "as it is", which is most likely SHIT (no matter how big brand and balls they think they have...).

Two last books are just an overview of natural human nutrition, written in times when "marketing" and all that crap didn't exist in this form as we know it today.

Guy from this link https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq for a start is giving away a potentially DEADLY advices.

getting the daily NET carbs down to < 50g, preferrably to 20g. Remeber, fiber does not count toward your daily carb intake, so if something you eat has 10g carbs but 8g fiber, then it has 2g NET carbs. Use green, fibrous vegetables as your main source of carbs.

Of course, he don't give a shit because his disclaimer states that:

The FAQ is not a doctor. You follow this advice at your own risk. If you have existing medical conditions that might inhibit your ability to safely transition to low-carb, please consult a qualified medical professional, ideally one supportive of eating low-carb.

So he don't care, he got his hands clean. If someone get stroke from his advice? So what? He is not a doctor right?

So who the fuck is he to give any advice to anyone? (I would love to know...). Because judging by his advice that person knows not enough.

The problem in his advice for starters is that NO ONE should ever cut their carb intake just like that, and up their fat intake to 50-80% of calories. Sure, if you want to kill someone eventually than why not. So before going that way people HAVE to check their blood flow system, no exceptions from this rule. LCHF is not some magic dietary pill.

Calories in/out it's pure garbage at best (that have nothing to do with reality). Of course, sure it helps to stay in control of the entire process, after all we need some way to describe and measure this biochemical machinery that human organism is, but the way we are using mathematics etc. it's nowhere close to reality, but it helps to move around. Unfortunately it's all far far away from reality and this is when errors in conclusions get in.

Take this article for example (from somehow respectable magazine...) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150806133148.htm

They concluded that carbs are, in a significant part at least, responsible for the advancement of human's brain. Well, bad news for their study because they are a WAY off the right track. Our brains got bigger and we got smarter not because of carbs or fire, it was due to the fact that our ancestors at some point were scavengers. By means of luck they figured out that inside the bones and skulls of dead animals is hidden precious high caloric, high mineral and vitamin content. Mostly fat and some proteins. And this discovery was a turning point in evolution of humans.

Anyway, there is soo much rubbish out there published these days by "experts" that it's even not funny.

turbin3 · Mar 7, 2016

Two of the best resources I've ever found on the subject of ketogenic diets:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/
http://www.leangains.com/

Buy Lyle's book. Seriously. If I remember correctly, I think he analyzed and cited something like 650+ studies on the subject. There is a whole LOT of bad info and misconceptions out there about ketosis, its benefits, dangers, etc. I've literally spent hundreds of man hours (if not a few thousand) educating myself on this subject, as well as repeated dietary experimentation over several years. The best conclusions I've been able to come to, in short, are:

The human body does not technically "need" carbs to survive.
Human genetics are infinitely variable, therefore, everyone's reactions, tolerance and capability for achieving success with a particular dietary program will also be significantly variable from person to person.
There are some simple truths that, despite genetic differences, remain relatively accurate across a "majority" (your guess) of people. Example: Long term consumption of an extremely low protein diet will significantly inhibit a person's ability to achieve significant degrees of muscular hypertrophy.
Much of the initial, and often significant, weight loss when in ketosis is typically depletion of glycogen stores (water weight). Water weight or fat, regardless, weight is weight, and I'm sure you'll appreciate dropping a bunch either way. Just beware, this is also why people will often see significant fluctuations the other way. Example: Do keto, drop a bunch of weight, jump right back into a high carb diet immediately, gain massive amounts of intracellular water retention in a short period of time. This is the absolute explanation for the insane fluctuations people see and seemingly can't figure out.
As with depleting glycogen stores, your muscles may "flatten out". People erroneously think this means they're losing muscle mass. Provided you have sufficient protein intake, and are still maintaining some weight training, NO, it most likely is not lost lean mass, but rather your muscles no longer have the same degree of glycogen stores to fill them up.
Dietary fat is probably heavily abused with a lot of keto diets, especially based on some of the extremely old science and recommendations from the early to mid part of the last century, when study of these diets really began. A LOT has changed since then, including our understanding of dietary protein intake, what is necessary to maintain lean mass, and what degree of manipulation in macronutrient intake can maintain ketosis in a more optimal state for maintaining lean mass or potentially gaining. I've seen a lot of people talking about 150-250g of daily fat intake, and I've even tried 120-150g myself, but it's my opinion that a significant percentage of people would likely be just fine with half of that (say 60-80g for weight loss, maybe 60-100g or 120g under certain other circumstances), and probably see better weight loss results.
Most people probably need an absolute minimum of ~100-150g of protein intake per day, to maintain lean muscle mass. The ballpark numbers are typically ~100-120g for women, based on size, and 120-150g for men, again based on size. +/- 30-50g based on any number of factors, such as if you're a 240lb bodybuilder at say 8%bf, trying to shave off another 1-2%bf, maybe you might want to be more like 180-200g on keto. Again, individual genetics, individual goals.
I've found that, thankfully, keto works phenomenally for me, and I do legitimately feel "better" when on it, although I know that is a subjective term. What I notice the most, is I actually feel the loss of water weight and glycogen depletion. For me at least, almost feels like I just took a coat off, and the room temp is 5-7 degrees cooler.
People with certain medical conditions may need to consider VERY carefully whether it's safe for them to do keto, and really need to consult some experts. For example, if you have a significant problem with hypoglycemia, worst case, keto could result in death.
Again, due to individual genetics, there still appears to be one area that is still a bit shrouded in mystery (as far as I'm aware), where certain people just do not function as well on keto, and function much more optimally on high carb diets. Correspondingly, there are many that are exactly the opposite, which can thrive on keto, and in some cases, can permanently switch to keto basically for life. This is where you'll really have to assess yourself, try to be honest with what you're feeling, experiencing, and really try to identify a root cause before making assumptions. For example, a ridiculous example might be trying keto for 1 week, feeling tired and sluggish, and giving up while making the determination that keto doesn't work. In reality, it can sometimes take as much as 3 weeks to reach lower levels of ketosis, and a lot of people experience that sluggishness their first week or two.

dresden · Mar 7, 2016

This is the keto thread

dresden

MeEatBrains

dresden

eliquid

hehejo

dresden

Andrewkar

...

hehejo

dresden

builder

dresden

Potatoe

dresden

Potatoe

MeEatBrains

hehejo

dresden

Ryuzaki

お前はもう死んでいる

Andrewkar

...

turbin3

dresden

turbin3

Potatoe

built

//

tomah