Which 9-5 would you prefer while building on the side? Developer or Marketer?

[BrandEngineer]

Would really appreciate your opinions on this. tldr; I'm strapped for cash atm and none of my business stuff is working out. I'm trying to decide between getting a developer or marketing job. Which is better role in your opinion to maximize leveling up skills, keep energy levels adequate for working on your own stuff on the side, etc.?

I enjoy learning software in my free time but I don't know if I'm cut out for doing it professionally, even as a temp thing. I'm no coding whiz kid, not SUPER passionate about the giga nerd stuff but enjoy building. Idk I keep going back and forth on the matter. Part of me wants to try it as a challenge and I like the idea of improving those skills so I can build whatever I set my mind to in the future. I'm not a fresher btw - been learning in my free time for many years, can build a full-stack app, yada yada.

On the other hand, I feel like marketing would be less mentally draining and of course, that's an important skill as well. I just don't know if I would care about marketing a business I have no equity stake in. I hate how formal and "you go girl" corporate marketing is. I do think it would be easier to get a job in digital though. Seems like having any semblance of technical skills makes you seem like a wizard to the non-tech peeps..

I'm also leaning towards picking up freelance work instead / in the meantime as kind of a combo of the two (I'm more of a jack-of-all-trades). The only thing I hate about freelance is the insane reliance on WordPress (I'm an SSG guy). Might have to get over that or find a really distinct niche. Would also love your thoughts on the freelance landscape atm. Thanks guys.

 

[bernard]

SEO is a good option if you like both.

There are many ways to work as an SEO, but generally it's a bit of jack-of-all-trades kind of marketing job, but with a more technical foundation.

Coding is very useful in SEO without having to be a full on developer.

Depending on your talents and interests, marketing is also highly useful in running content and outreach campaigns.

SEO jobs typically don't pay very well, but there's little to no formal requirements and anyone interested and motivated can probably get a junior job.

 

[BrandEngineer]

SEO is a good option if you like both.

There are many ways to work as an SEO, but generally it's a bit of jack-of-all-trades kind of marketing job, but with a more technical foundation.

Coding is very useful in SEO without having to be a full on developer.

Depending on your talents and interests, marketing is also highly useful in running content and outreach campaigns.

SEO jobs typically don't pay very well, but there's little to no formal requirements and anyone interested and motivated can probably get a junior job.

Hmm, my SEO fundamentals are decent. Could you get an SEO job without a super great case study of ranking a site? I have a personal tech blog where I get a couple hundred visits per month and a local biz site that generates some leads. But nothing like some of the GSC charts I see on here. Granted, I'm sure I could get there in less than a year if I actually followed through on creating content consistently or started a programmatic directory style site.

 

[bernard]

Hmm, my SEO fundamentals are decent. Could you get an SEO job without a super great case study of ranking a site? I have a personal tech blog where I get a couple hundred visits per month and a local biz site that generates some leads. But nothing like some of the GSC charts I see on here. Granted, I'm sure I could get there in less than a year if I actually followed through on creating content consistently or started a programmatic directory style site.

Yes, just having a blog and knowing the difference between Google Analytics and GSC is probably good enough.

It's a field where you're taught on the job and having interest and basic skills, a bit of understanding of statistics/math and some interest in marketing and you're good.

Like I said, a junior SEO job is not well paid, so don't expect it to be, but you can move up quickly.

 

[BrandEngineer]

Yes, just having a blog and knowing the difference between Google Analytics and GSC is probably good enough.

It's a field where you're taught on the job and having interest and basic skills, a bit of understanding of statistics/math and some interest in marketing and you're good.

Like I said, a junior SEO job is not well paid, so don't expect it to be, but you can move up quickly.

Oh okay, that's doable then. The bar is lower than I thought lol. Thanks man. I have some other ideas in mind like automation or analyst as well but this is a good option.

 

[secretagentdad]

The experience you get from development work is way more valuable.
Marketing is way over rated and you don't learn as many useful things.
If you can stand doing IT and dev work you'd be crazy to go the marketing route.

Take advantage of chat gpt / codepilot and other fun toys to be a prompt engineer.
You don't have to be some comp sci degree having fundimentals of C super genius.
Getting familiar with basic scripting, IT infrastructure and fanageling the latest and greatest toys to duct tape stuff together is a great use of your time that will set you up to succeed in your own projects.

 

[BrandEngineer]

The experience you get from development work is way more valuable.
Marketing is way over rated and you don't learn as many useful things.
If you can stand doing IT and dev work you'd be crazy to go the marketing route.

Take advantage of chat gpt / codepilot and other fun toys to be a prompt engineer.
You don't have to be some comp sci degree having fundimentals of C super genius.
Getting familiar with basic scripting, IT infrastructure and fanageling the latest and greatest toys to duct tape stuff together is a great use of your time that will set you up to succeed in your own projects.

I agree with you for the most part. I think that's why I keep coming back to dev. I hate the idea of being "just a marketing guy" because there are a million guys like that out there. Whereas with dev, you're building a tangible set of skills with the possibility of stacking domain knowledge on top of that.

On the other end of the spectrum, the C super geniuses are often so focused on optimization and low-level systems that they end up becoming one-dimensional and cap out their overall potential.

The happy middle ground, in my eyes at least, is aiming to be a decent enough dev with exceptional marketing skills or vice-versa. Seems like lots of the successful BuSo members fit that archetype. Which is why I was looking for something that sort of offers a combination of the two because sometimes I doubt that I have what it takes to be a great developer. I just don't want to waste my time and get stuck in golden handcuffs doing something I'm completely average at for the rest of my life because that sounds like my exact version of hell.

But yeah, it's probably a bad idea to backpedal at this point and settle for the "easy path" having put so much time into teaching myself how to code..

 

[Darth]

Take advantage of chat gpt / codepilot and other fun toys to be a prompt engineer.
You don't have to be some comp sci degree having fundimentals of C super genius.
Getting familiar with basic scripting, IT infrastructure and fanageling the latest and greatest toys to duct tape stuff together is a great use of your time that will set you up to succeed in your own projects.

Agree with this and have been doing it more and more with AI

 

[tziahs]

I would choose the dev path. You can't beat the hands-on experience of developing/building something from scratch. Plus, it helps you understand how things work, how a website works, the infrastructure, and all the small details behind every piece.
Oh, and the money... you'll make more money in dev roles vs. marketing.

 

[BrandEngineer]

I appreciate the responses fellas. I'm going to start off trying to land some freelance dev work and go from there, as I would prefer that over full-time employment. If that doesn't work out I could always look for a job and use the freelance as "experience" to fill in my employment gap. I already have the foundations of a personal brand/portfolio built up so shouldn't be too difficult.

 

[mozart8327]

im currently working a 9-5 job that pays me well. With that extra income, I have put it into more articles or more link building for my side sites and now I'm making even more money now from my sites. Originally I was a digital nomad but I only used most of my money for living and couldn't reinvest much of it... glad i went back to the corporate world but hope to go back to the digital nomad life once I hit around $10k a month in profit from my blogs

 

[bernard]

im currently working a 9-5 job that pays me well. With that extra income, I have put it into more articles or more link building for my side sites and now I'm making even more money now from my sites. Originally I was a digital nomad but I only used most of my money for living and couldn't reinvest much of it... glad i went back to the corporate world but hope to go back to the digital nomad life once I hit around $10k a month in profit from my blogs

This is a good way to do it, maybe the best, for a newb and I think people need to be told it more.

 

[mozart8327]

This is a good way to do it, maybe the best, for a newb and I think people need to be told it more.

Yea, tbh I miss the digital nomad life alot. I was living in Thailand on around $2k - $2.5k a month which is "enough" but I never had "enough" to reinvest into my business.

Now with my corporate job, I've reinvested the entire $2k - $2.5k/month and now making around $4k a month with my blogs. I hope by next year, I'll make more than my salary and I'll continue to just save my salary so when I do the 'digital nomad' life again I won't be so broke and poor...or barely making it.

There are digital nomads who live on alot less than $2k a month. Honestly their life really must be terrible. I was atleast living in a decent place, could eat out alot and went diving, surfing and traveled alot (I didn't have a visa, so I always had to do "visa runs") as well.

 

[bernard]

Yea, tbh I miss the digital nomad life alot. I was living in Thailand on around $2k - $2.5k a month which is "enough" but I never had "enough" to reinvest into my business.

Now with my corporate job, I've reinvested the entire $2k - $2.5k/month and now making around $4k a month with my blogs. I hope by next year, I'll make more than my salary and I'll continue to just save my salary so when I do the 'digital nomad' life again I won't be so broke and poor...or barely making it.

There are digital nomads who live on alot less than $2k a month. Honestly their life really must be terrible. I was atleast living in a decent place, could eat out alot and went diving, surfing and traveled alot (I didn't have a visa, so I always had to do "visa runs") as well.

Sounds like you had a good time, so why even stress that you weren't growing your business?

I mean, there's this idea that being a digital nomad is forever, while in reality I would guess most quit after 1-2 years. To me it's become the new backpacker and that's great.

Just to say, it's not that you lived in Thailand that made you unable to put aside, it's that you didn't earn enough, but because you lived in Thailand, you could survive on that and it didn't force you to earn more.

When you are back home, you can't survive on $2K so you need to make more money either in a job or somehow else.

There's a time for everything. It's good that you tried this right? Maybe in a few years that lifestyle will not be as appealing, so best that you did it while it was what you really wanted.

 

[eliquid]

As someone that does both, and has for over 20+ years now, I would disagree with picking Dev for many reasons.

But it ultimately comes down to you and your fit.

However, Dev is the bad choice here.

I can go into reasons if you want me too, but I've learned most threads here on BuSo go dead with no feedback after good advice is given.. so instead of wasting good advice on a dead thread, let me know if you revisit and want to know why.

 

[BrandEngineer]

As someone that does both, and has for over 20+ years now, I would disagree with picking Dev for many reasons.

But it ultimately comes down to you and your fit.

However, Dev is the bad choice here.

I can go into reasons if you want me too, but I've learned most threads here on BuSo go dead with no feedback after good advice is given.. so instead of wasting good advice on a dead thread, let me know if you revisit and want to know why.

Hey @eliquid, I would love to hear your opinion. I've read your stuff for a long time (here and on FLF), I just tend to lurk more than I post. I also completed your alignment exercises recently which seem to have helped. Got those values and mission pinned up on my wall.

I've been working on some web projects for my portfolio since I posted this and they're going okay. Deep down though, I feel like I'm kinda wasting my time. I wanna focus more on building projects that actually have the potential to turn into a business. I don't wanna lurk in the shadows and be told to churn out features like a worker bee.

So now I'm leaning towards saving my mental bandwidth at the 9-5 and only using dev as a secondary skill / for my own projects.

I will hold off on my other lines of reasoning for now as I'm curious to hear yours.

 

[eliquid]

Hey @eliquid, I would love to hear your opinion. I've read your stuff for a long time (here and on FLF), I just tend to lurk more than I post. I also completed your alignment exercises recently which seem to have helped. Got those values and mission pinned up on my wall.

I've been working on some web projects for my portfolio since I posted this and they're going okay. Deep down though, I feel like I'm kinda wasting my time. I wanna focus more on building projects that actually have the potential to turn into a business. I don't wanna lurk in the shadows and be told to churn out features like a worker bee.

So now I'm leaning towards saving my mental bandwidth at the 9-5 and only using dev as a secondary skill / for my own projects.

I will hold off on my other lines of reasoning for now as I'm curious to hear yours.

Just know, before you read this, I'm making a lot of assumptions and generalizations here.

It's all I got to go on. I don't know you, you don't me.. there are lots of what-ifs, etc....

So keep that in mind.

1. Any kind of Dev work is basically replaceable. I know you said you are not new to building stuff, but just go along here.. Are you a newbie at coding/Dev? If so, ChatGPT and a 10 year veteran in Pakistan can replace you tomorrow for almost pennies. Are you a 15-year vet in Dev? Guess what, ChatGPT and a 2 year Paki kid can replace you for pennies. No offense to anyone from Pakistan here, but everyone here knows what I am saying. Lettuce be cereal here.

2. As a Dev, shit is always breaking somewhere. Sure, this is job security in way.. but it's also a very tedious and boring ass thing, most times that has to also be fixed at 4am Sunday on your day off. A library gets updated, a hacker breaks into your stack, someone in another department edits the wrong thing, etc

3. Let's pretend you build something. Great. If it has no marketing you will have built the best thing ever and no one will pay you for it. Financially you will be in the same place tomorrow as you were yesterday.

4. Could you work 3 Dev jobs at once? Generally no. I mean you could if you outsourced your work to the Pakistani person I talked about in #1, but then you're not really a Dev at that point, you're a business that is good at delegating. So I am going to vote no on this one at this time, since we aren't talking about you being a Dev business that delegates. However, the option to do more than 1 job at a time is limited as a Dev, most times.

5. You are going to be reading and learning some other Dev's mess before you. This is a nightmare in its own right. If someone before you codes in a different style, has files all over the place, uses weird variables names, didn't use the right user permissions in the database, etc... you will spend half your time just note-taking and mind mapping the code, before you write 1 line of actual improvements and new features.

As a marketer though...

1. You are one step away from what drives money into most businesses. The people closest to the money, are generally the people that get paid the most, get promoted the most, and are respected the most.

2. While lots of people think a marketer can be easily replaced, you would be only sorta right. Many people claim they can rank you top of Google, write good sales funnels, send emails that inbox, up ROAS on PPC 450%, etc... But the real deal is this, as a Dev $x++ is always equal to $x +1. Marketing doesn't work this way and it takes a truly good marketer to rank top of Google for SEO, or inbox all your emails while having a good open and conversion rate. Dev is like math, but marketing is its own thing on a different level. So while you could fire someone and hire someone else in, that new person doesn't actually perform on the same level or can do the same thing as the prior marketer. Real good marketers are hard to replace.

3. Marketing, if you know it well, is evergreen. Nothing is "breaking" every day like the life of a Dev would have. Sure, you may have campaigns that die out or creative that get banner blindness, but these are easily fixed and nothing has to be done on your day off at 4am on a Sunday.

4. You could build a shitty product, or have one at work, and sell a shit ton and make tons of money off that shitty product. But you can't make a ton of money with a great product that has shitty marketing.

5. You honestly could work 3 marketing jobs at once. If you are really good, you could easily secure 3 full-time W2 jobs and do all of them at once during the day at the same time and no one be the wiser. No outsourcing needed. This would be very hard as a Dev though where your time might be tracked as number of lines coded or issues fixed.

6. You can make money while you sleep as a Marketer. I've never seen a Dev do that. Dev's get paid to fix things and their money is more closing tied to time and output. A marketer learns skills that make money while they are away/asleep/gone. Can a Dev build a SaaS that creates money while they are sleeping? Sure, but it wasn't the Dev work that did that.. no one would be buying at 3am unless they knew about it first ( marketing ).

That's a small tip of the iceburg. I could expand more with more time, but I'll stop there for tonight.

 

[BrandEngineer]

Thanks for the reply. You make some good points.

I don't wanna be that guy that asks for advice then shoots it down, let me make that clear. But I tend to disagree with most of them.

Any kind of Dev work is basically replaceable.

For sure – to an extent. Coding is a commodity and everyone and their mother is lining up to perform slave labor. I get that.

That said, I don't think ChatGPT can replace a senior dev yet, nor can a 3rd-world. Have you seen some cheap $15/HR Indian's code? It sucks balls. Like, horrifyingly bad. Fine for an MVP but for any org with a semblance of quality control, it's a no-go. I wouldn't put that code into production, not with PII nor sensitive business info involved.

I've been asking ChatGPT moderately advanced questions for a popular backend framework and it provides the wrong solution every single time. It has no way to think abstractly, although it does enhance my workflow. You need to know which questions to ask it, which only an experienced dev is able to do.

Sure, both could replace clueless juniors without a second thought.

You asked if I was a newbie; see above GIF.

As a Dev, shit is always breaking somewhere.

Can't argue with you here. One of the worst things about dev is that it's never enough. As a Doctor, you can become an expert on how the human body works and the knowledge is timeless. With dev, not only does an application break as dependencies rot; knowledge itself is fleeting (new framework, etc.).

That's why I started focusing on timeless knowledge like networking and OS. And switching to simple languages with good package management that compile to static binaries like Go. And using static site generators instead of the trash heap that is WordPress.

If it has no marketing you will have built the best thing ever and no one will pay you for it

Yep, but nothing preventing a dev from learning marketing. Most just don't want to and are content with their 9-5. Is a 9-5 marketer a better marketer than a former dev with a growing startup? Don't think so.

Could you work 3 Dev jobs at once? Generally no.

Why would you want to is my question 1 entry-level dev salary at a good company = 3 entry-level marketing salaries

Interestingly enough, I have been thinking of building a web consultancy where I delegate the technical work and simply find contracts. I wouldn't be able to do that as effectively (quality control) if I had no dev knowledge.

You are going to be reading and learning some other Dev's mess before you.

Hate this for sure. Plus most devs are nerds at heart and hop between all these unnecessary tools that increase the complexity and maintenance by 10x. Give me a local Postgres, built-in dev server and VS Code please...

The people closest to the money, are generally the people that get paid the most

Why do devs get paid more than marketers then? (aside from director-level and above maybe)

Sales, you're absolutely correct. In marketing, only the superstars get paid bank. And most of them work for themselves.

The rest of what you said I agree with for the most part.

Let me ask you this though: all things equal, who is going to win out in the end? The marketer with dev skills or the marketer without any complimentary skills, all else equal? You make it sound like product doesn't matter at all; of course marketing is important but it's WAY easier to market a great product than a shitty one, no matter how good of a marketer you are. Would you trade away your dev skills, or do they come in handy? Almost everyone on this forum who is successful knows how to code to an extent.

This isn't really a debate about whether to learn dev or not though. You can learn it on your own or at a 9-5 and vice versa with marketing. So it really comes down to where you want to spend your energy..

That's why I'm hesitant about a dev 9-5. I don't want to spend all that energy keeping up with new tech, solving bugs for software I have no stake in, going through asinine interview processes, etc.

At least with a marketing 9-5, I can work on my own projects on the side and not be burned out 24/7. Plus, you're seen as a wizard for simple tech knowledge like automating something via an API.

 

[CCarter]

I think a 9-5s is a waste of time if you are looking to become a serious entrepreneur.

9-5s take energy and it's very rare that a side-project gets worked on with the same energy as the 9-5. So most people that want to play it safe, which is what you are trying to do, dissipate their main energy on their 9-5, and then try to catch up on the weekend or whenever they have free time for their "side-hustle".

99.999% of these 9-5s never get their side-hustle off the ground or can give it the energy required when their competitions do it 40-120 hours a week. So if that 1st side-project fails, they most likely will give up. OR maybe they continue the side-projects route - #2 project fails, then #3 project fails. At some point they'll give up and focus on their 9-5.

The only time I've seen any serious success with people and within myself is when I dedicated 100% of my energy towards a project, especially in the beginning getting it off the ground. Switch from one project to another during the day gets draining.

I KNOW this blueprint of doing a side-project while working the 9-5 is just a fantasy that is pushed into the ether by the 4-hour work week gang (another fantasy).

It's similar to OnlyFans for women. Are there women that make tons of money on OnlyFans? Yes. And they are mostly celebrities or individuals with a massive audience already. Bhad Bhabie (Cash Me Out side girl), made a $1 million in 6 hours. She had an audience.

Is a random girl from your hometown going to do that? NO, just no. When you look at the stats the top 10% of OnlyFans models make about $1,000 a month. The bottom 90% - make less than $100 per month. What's the difference - top earners have an audience or put in more energy. But regardless of the stats and reality there are teenage girls waiting to turn 18 years old so they can start an OnlyFans cause of the fantasy of bringing in big money that's being pushed into the ether by the Instagram live-style crowd.

The point is there are "Quick money", "Entrepreneur", "OnlyFans" and other fantasies being pushed around that things are easy to get off the ground and running. It is to the point that people think they can create a business on the weekend, while working a 9-5 and turn and compete against businesses that have employees that work 40-120 hours a week, per employee.

If you are looking for a hobby for your "side business", that's fine. But it's not very realistic that you can put in the serious energy needed to take on your competition when splitting your energy.

If you are going to do something go all in, otherwise you are just wasting your time. If you believed in your side-project, go get a bank loan or raise money from family and friends, then dedicate 18-24 hours a day for 6 months to a year to get it off the ground. Otherwise just get a regular job and drop the entrepreneur fantasy.

Reading your response it sounds like you've already made up your mind, this post is really for the people reading this and trying to figure out their path in life. If you don't have enough energy for something, it ain't going to work out 100% of the time.

 

[Nonbeardedman]

a 10 year veteran in Pakistan can replace you tomorrow for almost pennies.

a 2 year Paki kid can replace you for pennies

That said, I don't think ChatGPT can replace a senior dev yet, nor can a 3rd-world.

I'm from Pakistan myself, no offense taken BTW @eliquid, although I would tell you that Paki isn't short for Pakistani, it's a slur word used commonly in the U.K. to racially discriminate South Asians - mostly Pakistanis

Anyways, I can assure you OP that people over here are learning programming like the ABCs.

Although I do agree that ChatGPT won't replace a senior dev any time soon, outsourcing the programming to someone in Pakistan or India is a pretty common scenario. Sure, the quality may be lacking, but you can find a veteran dev here in Pakistan as well - for cheap.

I guess that's where 3rd-world countries are mainly shining currently.

Assuming you live in some 1st world country like Canada, USA, Australia, UK, etc. How would you feel making $2000/mo as a dev? Would it be the "dream life"? Based on what I've heard, I don't think so. I've heard people from the U.S. say their business failed because they only generated about $4k/mo which still wasn't enough for them to expand their business, reach their goals, take care of family or something.

You know what $4k/mo gets you in Pakistan?

- Down-payment for a brand new car
- Down-payment for a house or rent for a house in one of the best societies (avg. rent about $270/mo in one of the most well-developed societies within Pakistan)
- Lavish food everyday considering you cook at home and plan on eating out as well
- Get married (avg. marriage costs about $1000-2000)
- Raise a family (avg. cost of raising a family of 4 is estimated to be around $1000-1500/mo)
- etc.

Basically, you live a pretty luxurious life. You also won't notice the political turmoil, rising prices, electricity shortages, etc. Because you'd have enough money to install a generator, keep up with inflation (by earning in dollars), and give a good life to your wife and kids.

As for some specific insights from Pakistan, here are some things to consider.

• Due to high rates of inflation and low economic development many people here are opting for freelancing and remote jobs with the highest supply of software engineers/developers due to the favorable exchange rate and the pay for skilled dev. work
• More experienced developers over here are creating their agencies which allow international companies to outsource their whole dev. work to them
• Although the majority of Pakistanis' development skills aren't up to standard, and ChatGPT is giving them further excuse to be lazy, there are many highly skilled devs that are going for international opportunities to earn in dollars
• Pakistanis have a very high intuition, are hardworking (well I guess this depends on how they're raised), and are curious. Pakistan was (or still is) famous for "not throwing anything away" because a 12-year old kid over here is capable of taking a piece of scrap metal and turn it into a functioning power source - so anything thrown isn't trash rather something that could've been converted to something useful. I've personally met some children aged 10-12 years that have made proper games, apps, and basic programs
• Finally, the local job market here is pretty bad. Many companies, including a lot of software houses, tend to throw the merit out the door and employ their cousin's brother-in-law's nephew on senior managerial positions - which means there's a lot of skilled labor here that's looking for jobs - which means you'll be getting more competition in freelancing.

I'm guessing you're not going the freelancing route but your clients may be outsourcing their work to these remote workers.

Also, I haven't done dev work myself professionally so all I can offer are these insights related to the Pakistani market which I believe may hold true for other third-world countries such as India, Phillipines, and Nigeria.

As for marketing, I've noticed people lack it here very much.

All you'll hear is that they'll give you a "data-driven, optimized marketing campaign", but majority of them don't know about marketing funnels, how to perform market research, etc. So, there's a lot of untapped potential there.

I don't know how helpful this all may seem to you, but I saw Pakistan and thought I'd give my two cents for you to consider before going into dev work, hope it helps

 

[BrandEngineer]

I think a 9-5s is a waste of time if you are looking to become a serious entrepreneur.Reading your response it sounds like you've already made up your mind

You know what, my initial (emotional) reaction to this was to get angry and try to prove to you there's an exception to the rule. But you're probably right.

Reading your response it sounds like you've already made up your mind

This is where you're wrong. I haven't made up my mind and I don't want to settle for a 9-5. In fact, that's probably why I started this thread in the first place (really just trying to cope for my failures as I continue to burn a hole through my wallet and make excuses for myself).

I do have confidence issues and emotional issues, not going to lie about that. I need find a way to deal with those if I ever want to be successful.

The thought of "settling" for a regular life disgusts me to no end. But thus far, I haven't found a way to make the alternative work and yeah, as a result I feel completely lost.

I'm from Pakistan myself

I appreciate your perspective. I don't doubt that there are devs out there from your home country or similar ones that could replace an engineer from a first-world country. It's just been my experience that the work is lower quality on average, and that high-quality tech companies in the first-world prefer hiring native engineers for a reason.

Your English and communication skills are excellent by the way but I find that to be the exception to the rule. And that's crucially important for translating requirements to business logic. It's not all about pure technical skills in the traditional sense.

 

[CCarter]

You know what, my initial (emotional) reaction to this was to get angry and try to prove to you there's an exception to the rule. But you're probably right.

You are smarter than most. Don't let emotions cloud reasoning or rationality. There are things I read and think, "that guy is wrong", but then I sit back and realize he make sense. It's how we grow using other people's perspective. This dude freshpeppermint wanted to "prove me wrong" and ended up wasting 7 months of his life and in the end admitted I was right. 7 months of his life where he could have been doing something fruitful or profitable - to prove ME wrong like that's going to change my life style or way I think. Who am I? I'm no one.

Maybe you do make $1 millions on the weekends from your side-hustle while working a 9-5. That's not going to change the stats that 99.999% of people that try this fail. An exception to the rules, the 0.001%, literally PROVES the accuracy of the rule - that majority of people fail going down this route.

This is where you're wrong. I haven't made up my mind and I don't want to settle for a 9-5.

This is a point you have to understand - either you are an entrepreneur and that's your mindset since being a little kid or you're not.

What I mean by that is, just titling this thread "Which 9-5 would you prefer ..." - no entrepreneur mind-setted person would ever come to that type of question. Development or Marketer is irrelevant. An entrepreneur wants to create, regardless of the risks.

Entrepreneur risk everything especially if they are young, they risk security, which is the exact opposite of the reason for getting a 9-5 job. They would rather risk being homeless versus working a single hour for another person and NOT creating something of their own.

Imagine if you are someone like my favorite person @Satvrn - he hustled for 6+ months and started making bank. To the point he's now trolling me with making $9 million a month in PROFIT. Now imagine you've see that type of "gold mine" - and then he loses it all. Can you really see any reality where he's going to get a 9-5 job to get back on his feet and then go back to banking? NO. He is going to go to past business partners, banks, family members, friends and get funding at some level and start over because he's seen the other side. If he were to go a 9-5 job he's done and he'll never be a man of action ever again. It's a calling.

You'd rather get SECURITY and then try to gamble. No, entrepreneur rather risk everything on black at the blackjack table versus going the security route.

It sounds crazy because it is crazy. Once you start making $100K a month, how the hell can you possible go back to maybe $5-7K a month at job?

Entrepreneur don't care about security at that level. They've seen the potential and other side. There are certain things which you can't go back from and IF you DO, you'll never be able to recover.

It's a calling, there is something that will eat away at you inside until the end of your days unless you take action towards it. It's an itch or voice in your head that won't go away.

A lot of "SEOs" and "marketers" aren't real entrepreneur. They'll be happy making their $10-20K a month nut and going and playing with their kids or playing video games as long they make their $10-20K a month. They are wantrepreneur. Once Google decimates them they'll have to go get a regular 9-5 job. It's not a calling for them. They don't LOVE SEO or being a marketer, it's solo-entrepreneur job they created for themselves.

How do I question whether this person is a serious entrepreneur? Is he willing to sleep on the factory floor like Elon Musk at Tesla? Is he willing to work 18 hours a day, 7 days a week for the next 2-3+ years on this project? You can see the passion in their eyes and how they talk about the project. They won't give up because someone doesn't believe in them. They are going to keep at it period.

Most people would crumble without a 2 week guaranteed vacation. Or the second their girlfriend of wife nags them that they are not spending enough time with they or the kids, there is going to be "something" that divides their focus, and when they give in to that they are DONE.

Do you think your girlfriend is going to be happy with you working 18 hours a day, 7 days a week for the next 2-3 years? Do you care about her feelings more than winning? Are you willing to make that level of sacrifice to win? IF no, that's not a problem, 99% of the world is not willing to make those types of sacrifices, that's why the 1% are the 1%. That's why the 1% are entrepreneur or someone in their family was willing to make those sacrifices and left them the money.

You have to go all in, risk it all or don't even bother trying. Neither 9-5 options, Dev or Marketer, is all in.

If you can't go to the bank and convince a banker to give you a loan for your business, when the majority of their fees are from BUSINESS LOANS (this is literally what the fuck they do all day), than you either have a bad idea or KNOW it's a bad idea from the start, and ain't no one stupid enough to give you the money. Or they don't see the passion in your eyes.

Are you passionate about this?

 

[BrandEngineer]

Are you passionate about this?

Passionate enough to quit my job with no plan and live in my car / sketchy temp housing for the past 2 years...

And to neglect my health and social life for close to a decade grinding nearly 24/7 in front of a computer screen while my friends were out living it up on the weekends...

An entrepreneur wants to create, regardless of the risks.

I do want to create. That's what I'm obsessed with; always have been. Nothing in this world compares to the high I get from putting my creations out there. It's like crack to me. I think I would've quit a long time ago if that wasn't the case.

Clearly I have some faulty programming that has held me back – or poor health, or the wrong playbook (indie/solopreneur BS), or whatever the fuck excuse – which inevitably led to the creation of this thread as the cop out it is.

Whatever it may be, I've hit such a low point in my life and gone through so much B.S. for seemingly no reward that it's hard to imagine being able to live with myself if I settle for the safe route at this point. So may as well go for broke and I'll find out soon enough if I'm kidding myself or not...

 

[CCarter]

I do want to create.

What do you want to create?

Do you have an idea or are you looking at end goal of the lifestyle?

On your old projects - why did you fail? You should do a de-briefing of what went wrong and why.

9/10 times - failed projects on my end didn't have enough marketing pushes. New revenue and new money would have solved a lot of problems. When doing a debrief I think about the good and bad choices, what could have been better, what was the lesson here. Next time how do I overcome it.

Writing this stuff down is important - pen and paper - it's powerful because you can see yourself.

Talking outloud or talking to someone about this to get their perspective is important.

Also having a mentor that's in the current position you WANT to be in helps you navigate the trenches.

 

[bernard]

A lot of "SEOs" and "marketers" aren't real entrepreneur. They'll be happy making their $10-20K a month nut and going and playing with their kids or playing video games as long they make their $10-20K a month. They are wantrepreneur. Once Google decimates them they'll have to go get a regular 9-5 job. It's not a calling for them. They don't LOVE SEO or being a marketer, it's solo-entrepreneur job they created for themselves.

Correct and when I suggested that the 9-5 job with a side project is a viable option, then that's exactly because many people are not entrepreneur. Most people are not entrepreneurs. I am not an entrepreneur.

I think it's important to recognise this early on and adjust your expectations accordingly. If you're actually the type who could enjoy a 9-5 or part-time work, then that's definitely possible. You can have a very fullfilling and materially successful life being a part-time employee, part-time self-employed.

Examples of this are doctors who has their main gig at a public hospital, finding meaning in treating everyone, not just the rich, but then run their own private clinic a couple of days a week. Or the experienced coder, who works at the local library, but then runs a small time biz in security at the side or as a Drupal consultant. Or a dietician who works with psychiatric patients, but then runs a successful biz at the side for weigh loss. Many such cases.

Seen it happen many times, though it usually requires something like 10 years of work experience before you've proven yourself as an expert that people will hire part-time (but pay close to full time).

If you're a well paid expert in some cushy job and you don't get stressed out, you can spend your free time tinkering and then spend all the money you make on your sidehustle investing into your sidehustle.

There's nothing wrong with this. It can work. You can apply the entrepreneurial mindset to a side hustle, just as well as a full hustle.