Do You Bitcoin?

[droplister]

I like Bitcoin, a lot.

There's a massive amount of misconception and lack of understanding around it though.

What's the Bitcoin-y-ness of BUSO? Take the poll!

Here's the tl;dr on Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is a protocol for transferring value over the internet. It's peer-to-peer, censorship resistant, permission-less, decentralized, and immutable.

These qualities make it good for one thing: regulatory arbitrage.

 

[Calamari]

In with the first "that's stupid" vote because I'm a dick

 

[j_b]

It's great for buying drugs.

 

[Calamari]

It's great for buying drugs.

Sure, makes total sense that your dealer prefers bitcoin over cash.

 

[Ryuzaki]

I know about it and I'm interested. This protocol is definitely going to be the foundation for future transactions when we go cashless, which undoubtedly will occur. Hopefully it protects us from those who'd like our fiat money to become completely digital too.

I'd like to buy one or two just to hold for the super long haul and see how it goes. I remember scoffing when it was less than a dollar a pop. Whether it's a good idea or whatever is inconsequential to the fact that I could have made a gob of cash if I hadn't scoffed. I don't scoff any more.

 

[j_b]

Sure, makes total sense that your dealer prefers bitcoin over cash.

Not sure if serious. Look up 'Silk Road'/Ross Ulbricht and also /r/darknetmarkets to get an idea if you think I'm joking. The main problem with these kind of transactions - scamming aside - is the logistics of conversion between 'real' currency and bitcoin & also the very rapid fluctuations in value between said currencies and bitcoin. So it serves it's purpose. Holding onto it, on the other hand, seems like a real mugs game from my point of view.

 

[CCarter]

This should be interesting...

I've made a lot of money with Bitcoins, bought a ton at $185 and sold at $900 when things were slipping - so just consider that when reading what I'm going to write.

In order for a new technology to get mass adoption it has to make the previous a little more obsolete or completely obsolete. Basically for the masses to adopt something the new technology has to make it EASIER then the previous one.

Example, Landline telephones, hardly anyone uses them anymore since people have cell phones right in their pockets. There are complete households with no landlines anymore since the cellphone is with you all the time now. Cellphones have made the landline obsolete.

Another example, the internet itself. It has opened up a faster way of communicating with people around the world instantly. I can jump on Skype or even email someone halfway around the world and have a live conversation with them. Therefore places like the post office where I used to send letter to and from the Army's bootcamp are becoming obsolete. When was the last time you sent a handwritten letter to anyone? Heck they don't even teach cursive anymore in some of the more savage lands in the colonies.

Paying bills used to mean writing a check every month to all these companies, mailing the checks out. Now 99% of your bills can be automated to be pulled from your bank account or even checks can be automatically mailed out on your behalf.

Looking up your bank statement you used to have to wait till the monthly mail, now you login online and look at your spending habits.

Even with early computers, the GUI (graphical user interface, you know the mouse and clicking icons stuff) made the terminal (commandline) almost obsolete. The mass do not need to enter terminal or the command line ever in their life to operate a computer.

Lets go back even further, back in the day, there was a huge demand for horses since that was the de-facto mode of transportation, then the automobile came along - making getting around in a horse impractical.

Electricity and the lightbulb made the need for those old time fire lamps, I dunno what they are called, but you know what I'm referring to, obsolete.

A little further back, the mass printing press, when that came onto the scene people no longer had to scribe generations of stories by hand anymore. Stories could be printed and a whole generation of literate people came about since there were now more books to read - even for you serfs. Education was no longer a privilege of the rich and well off. This trigger the idea that anyone could get educated within the masses. Public schools and more private schools opened up cause now it was practical.

Going back to the telegram and telephone, before any of that when a president would get elected it would take part of the country weeks if not months to know who was elected to be President of the colonies. For months people didn't know who got elected until news got to them.

Now fast forward to one of the latest technologies, QR Codes... The reason they never took off was several folds, but it was essentially you have to open your phone, open an app that then takes a picture of an image, processes that image, then opens your browser to visit the website. There are lot of physical steps there. Wouldn't it be easier to just open your phone, open your web browser and type in the url? Yes, It is easier...

QR Codes made visiting a specific web pages a bit harder by adding more steps. Now, every now and then there are marketing gimmicks to get people's attention:

But how long can that last. A technology that comes into play which does not make another one obsolete even a little bit or worse ADDS steps to a process WILL NOT be adopted by the masses.

So now enter Bitcoin. (And I'm here strictly talking about Mass Adoption). For Bitcoin to get adopted by the masses it has to be easier to send and receive money then current methods. Is it currently easier then Paypal? No. "Give me your Paypal" is the same effort as "give me your email", Once I got your Paypal email I can send the money quickly. If you scam me I also have a bit of protection. Bitcoin by default does not allow an easy way. Bitcoin addresses are long random characters, only way to use them is to copy and paste it into the address field.

It's also not anonymous since when all those people that were stealing Bitcoins were being watched in real-time since the transitions are in block-chain in real-time. There were whole threads about them on Reddit as the thefts were happening.

If I'm buying a physical item, that item has to come to some location I'm associated with at some level, so anonymous, not really.

Is it easier then Entering my credit card information into a form? No. Think about it at the consumer level. If I have a serious problem with a business/someone who charged my credit card I can dispute it, chargeback, and have a way of recourse. Bitcoin does not allow that by default.

Taking out your money, rather transferring "currencies", has been a major headache. You have to either meet some random Joe at some location to do the exchange in real-time, or transfer it into some account that has legal tender. Example with Coinbase there is all this transferring to get money in or take money out.

It's not faster then CC or cash. It's not easier then CC or cash. It adds more steps to the whole process of checking out and buying things online. And then offline, buying stuff... forget about that, we both have to have our phones out and transfer, wait for the transfer to confirm, then exchange goods. That's not easier then handing you cash.

Talking strictly for a mass adoption of the technology, so it doesn't become a gimmick like QR Code - in order for Bitcoin to gain any traction it's going to need to become "easier" than current systems in place. When thinking about the safety nets in place as a consumer, which are non-existent with Bitcoin there is no real appeal to adopting it.

The money I made on Bitcoin was during the big speculation run. It wasn't because I believed in the underlying philosophy of it, because if you really sit down and look, I've got X amount of Bitcoins in some account somewhere, how do I make a purchase at Home Depot or Walmart or wherever these savages buy goods at? The question is how can Bitcoin become easier than cash or credit cards - and when that happens, then and only then will Bitcoin get adopted by the masses.

 

[Meatplow]

So now enter Bitcoin. (And I'm here strictly talking about Mass Adoption). For Bitcoin to get adopted by the masses it has to be easier to send and receive money then current methods.

That's only true if you are talking about Bitcoin as a payment mechanism. The underlying value of Bitcoin is in the blockchain and corresponding technologies and since you can't really separate the two they are mutually tied to each other.

Mass adoption of Bitcoin will happen behind the seen, within newly created technologies and protocols. Ask anyone off the street what TCP/IP or SMTP is and 95% of them would have no idea. That doesn't mean that there isn't mass adoption.

Follow the money! - More VC has been invested in Bitcoin, then all the dotcom companies combined. Could it be another bubble? Sure. In fact, it probably is, but that doesn't mean that 2 or 3 Goliaths won't emerge when the dust settles.

 

[emp]

While I agree (it is ridonculously complicated) .. there is movement into that direction:

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-atm-map/

::emp::

 

[built]

Thats a mighty fine QR code

 

[droplister]

I'll just re-iterate my first point: Bitcoin is good for regulatory arbitrage.

Basically, whenever the law prevents you from conducting a transaction you want to perform.

This could be for things like drugs, but it could also be for other things like banned books.

It could be to get around capital controls. It could be to avoid taxes. It could be to avoid seizure of funds, if you are likely to be declared a national security threat. It could be to gamble!

You can literally issue securities on the Bitcoin block-chain which could be useful for getting around corrupt regulators or bullshit regulations in your country, if you wanted to start a company.

So, on and so forth.

If you're looking to use Bitcoin to buy a coffee, you don't need bitcoin. If you're looking to do something where there are systems in place that conspire against your ability to do that thing, you use Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is financial freedom - when you need it.

People use Bitcoin because they have no other choice.

No one wants to use Bitcoin, they have to. Because no "competing" services offer the same level of freedom and anonymity to transmit value peer-to-peer. It's the only game in town.

And it's crazy easy to use. You just send X bitcoins to Y address.

 

[Meatplow]

I'll just re-iterate my first point: Bitcoin is good for regulatory arbitrage.

Sure, but that's the 1%, not the 99%. So, if you're using it for the reasons stated, then you don't really care about its monetary value. It's a means to an end. If you are looking to make money or invest in it, then that's a different story.

Which goes back to the last few posts. Mass adoption will never happen in that scenario. It will only happen behind the scenes.

 

[emp]

Mass adoption will only happen IF I can easily buy a coffee with it.
The masses don't care about regulatory arbitrage .. 99% would just go "huh?"

::emp::

 

[droplister]

It's not for buying coffee. So, your premise that it needs to buy you coffee (which you can do - there's a dozen Bitcoin debit cards) in order to be adopted doesn't make sense to me. That's like saying gold won't be worth anything until I can buy coffee with it.

And, last time I checked, the "black" market is something like $10 trillion dollars in size. That would put it right behind the US and China in terms of GDP. It's one of the largest economies in the world.

A lot of illegal transactions occur with USD, but you don't benefit from it much by merely holding USD.

Bitcoins are scarce and the price is due to supply/demand. So, if more of the black market, or the "informal economy," uses bitcoin - you can benefit from that illegal activity - legally - just holding bitcoins.

And this 1% vs the 99% is just numbers you made up. The people served by regulations won't need Bitcoin. But to say 99% of the world is well serviced by existing regulations knowing the size of the black market...

And if you think of small time drug dealers when I talk about regulatory arbitrage, you're overlooking the fact that banks and corporations LOVE regulatory arbitrage.

I would also reiterate my point that no one uses Bitcoin because they want to. They use Bitcoin because they have to. It's been around for 6 years, it's a protocol. It's gonna stick around.

TCP has been around for like 40 years? No one uses it because they want to - they have to.

 

[Ryuzaki]

I am now the proud owner of 0.05587153 BTC. Traded in some other cryptocoin with the help of @droplister. We ballin' now.

 

[daseoman]

http://www.coindesk.com/hands-on-with-visa-europes-bitcoin-remittance-app/

Once the big guys adopt BTC, the masses will follow, because it will be easy to use and what is more important, it has very low transaction fees.. At the moment it is a good time to do some trading and build up your BTC purse for when they get up to 1k per coin again

 

[droplister]

AFAIK - Remittance is regulatory arbitrage

It's not clear if Bitcoin is good for remittance yet though because all the costs are in "the last mile."

American Express backed: https://www.goabra.com/ might have come up with a solution there.

More and more, I think it's very possible that Bitcoin will go 100% enterprise backend. It would be a real bummer, but if you had bitcoin at that point it would be like somehow getting your hands on IMF special drawing rights.

 

[daseoman]

These guys might lure in some crowds:

https://coffee.foldapp.com/

For now they have Starbucks discounts but as far as I know they will add Target, WholeFoods...

 

[droplister]

These guys might lure in some crowds:

https://coffee.foldapp.com/

For now they have Starbucks discounts but as far as I know they will add Target, WholeFoods...

Apps like this are good to get people involved, but only so that they can then discover that Bitcoin isn't good for buying coffee and your groceries.

And this app is good to show that it's not the ability to buy coffee that is going to make it mainstream, as people who don't know anything have stated above.

You can buy coffee as a 20% discount, where's the adoption wave??!?!?

Bitcoin's good at putting value outside the control of regulators (read: the state.)

It's gonna be used by black markets, dark markets, and eat up offshore banking.

The "real" economy will seek it out as good money and good money wins.

 

[Daquan]

I know more dealers who'll take an x-box for payment than bitcoins. Actually, I know zero dealers who take bitcoin. These are street level guys though, not mules, distributors, or manufacturers. It's a useful measure of adoption rate though. When it hits the bottom of the slang chain, we'll know bitcoin is ready.

 

[droplister]

I know more dealers who'll take an x-box for payment than bitcoins. Actually, I know zero dealers who take bitcoin. These are street level guys though, not mules, distributors, or manufacturers. It's a useful measure of adoption rate though. When it hits the bottom of the slang chain, we'll know bitcoin is ready.

Do you even dark market, bro?