Coronavirus Hysteria

[MinstrelJunkie]

So once again, I'm struggling to see a clear correlation between the so-called pandemic and the death rate. Here's the historical death rate in the US, and its been steadily growing since 2008. And the best part is the growth rate's been dropping since 2016: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/death-rate

Not sure how I can make it more clearer than this:

United States - Historical Death Rate Data
Year	Death Rate	Growth Rate
2022	9.075	1.090%
2021	8.977	1.090%
2020	8.880	1.120%
2019	8.782	1.120%
2018	8.685	1.220%
2017	8.580	1.240%
2016	8.475	1.270%
2015	8.369	1.270%
2014	8.264	1.290%
2013	8.159	0.090%

Life expectancy goes down when deaths go up. They're correlated. In this case, they represent the same thing.

Again, read your sources thoroughly. Front and center of that page you linked is this message:

Why they still made those projections without including covid-19, I don't know. A definitive source that does include covid numbers is the NCHS United States Mortality Report.

Key Findings

• Life expectancy for the U.S. population in 2020 was 77.0 years, a decrease of 1.8 years from 2019.
• The age-adjusted death rate increased by 16.8% from 715.2 deaths per 100,000 standard population in 2019 to 835.4 in 2020.
• Age-specific death rates increased from 2019 to 2020 for each age group 15 years and over.
• Nine of the 10 leading causes of death in 2020 remained the same as in 2019, although 5 causes switched rank; heart disease and cancer remained the top 2 leading causes, and COVID-19 became the third leading cause of death in 2020.

You highlighted that drug-related deaths went up. So did death rates due to heart disease, strokes, Alzheimers, diabetes, and accidental injuries. Why? Because when the hospital is overrun with covid patients, they can't reach the standard quality of healthcare for other patients.

Covid isn't just killing people by itself, it's limiting the care we can give to people suffering from other life-threatening issues.

Who are you to decide what I should do? When did your fear of danger become a reason to limit my freedom of choice?

Two things. First, it's not me deciding - it's your government. It's every government. It's every medical body around the world.

Second, your freedom of choice is limited when your choices put others in danger. It's like you're saying it's your freedom of choice to drive at 100mph through a town center. How dare someone tell you that it's not your choice to do that? Our freedoms are limited when our choices endanger people. That's why there are speed limits, that's why you need a driving license to drive a car, that's why you need a vaccine and a mask to be in a public venue. Otherwise, you're endangering the people around you.

 

[Stewy]

Life expectancy goes down when deaths go up. They're correlated. In this case, they represent the same thing.

Again, read your sources thoroughly. Front and center of that page you linked is this message:

Why they still made those projections without including covid-19, I don't know. A definitive source that does include covid numbers is the NCHS United States Mortality Report.


You highlighted that drug-related deaths went up. So did death rates due to heart disease, strokes, Alzheimers, diabetes, and accidental injuries. Why? Because when the hospital is overrun with covid patients, they can't reach the standard quality of healthcare for other patients.

Covid isn't just killing people by itself, it's limiting the care we can give to people suffering from other life-threatening issues.



Two things. First, it's not me deciding - it's your government. It's every government. It's every medical body around the world.

Second, your freedom of choice is limited when your choices put others in danger. It's like you're saying it's your freedom of choice to drive at 100mph through a town center. How dare someone tell you that it's not your choice to do that? Our freedoms are limited when our choices endanger people. That's why there are speed limits, that's why you need a driving license to drive a car, that's why you need a vaccine and a mask to be in a public venue. Otherwise, you're endangering the people around you.

At this point, I see no reason to address your points, as you've been furtively sidestepping every point I made. Anyone reading your answers can see this.

And I'm not talking about driving at 100mph through a town center. That has literally nothing to do with what we've been discussing.

I also used the term "fear of danger" which is not danger itself:

driving at 100mph through a town center = danger
drowning in panic because of a cold = fear of danger

It may be governments imposing these mandates, but it's people like you that help enforce it and attempt to alienate people like myself. Without any justified reason, especially when you look at the historical population and death rate data.

People like myself have no issue at all with others taking the "vaccine" or not. Every grown up adult has their choice in such a situation, and we should all respect that. You're trying to convince people to give up on their freedom of choice, by comparing this to driving through a town center at 100mph.

That's wreckless to say the least.

We're going round in circles so feel free to not respond, not sure what else there is to say.

 

[Jesse]

Let's see where we are in the United States compared to South Africa at this point.

It looks like cases started shooting up around November 23 in South Africa and around December 23 or so in the United States. If we follow a similar curve, then we will be hitting the peak this weekend and early next week. We're also getting a bit of a snowstorm this weekend on the East Coast, but I don't know how much that would affect things at this point.

Pretty much everyone I know has it, and I live in a fairly rural area. It's kind of crazy how quickly and easily this variant has spread.

 

[MinstrelJunkie]

At this point, I see no reason to address your points, as you've been furtively sidestepping every point I made. Anyone reading your answers can see this.

I've attempted to respectfully debate against everything you've said.

I've gone through each of your points, here's my summation:

• You tried to say Omnicron is a non-issue because the symptoms are coughs, fevers, runny nose, etc. I argued by saying that's the same symptoms as normal covid so it's not to be taken lightly. I then referenced your own link that said how much of a danger Omnicron poses to the unvaccinated.
• You asked if I saw a spike in death rates justifying concern. I referenced the spike in your own data and linked you to a report showing how much the death rate has risen and how bad the situation is.
• You focused on my source being Reuters, so I linked you to the WHO.
• You then linked data which looked to show the death rate hadn't changed. I pointed out that data doesn't include COVID numbers (shown in a huge red-bordered box), and again linked more stats showing how huge of a spike the death rate has gone up.

Could you please outline the points you've made which I sidestepped, and I'll be happy to address them.

I also used the term "fear of danger" which is not danger itself:

driving at 100mph through a town center = danger
drowning in panic because of a cold = fear of danger

You're misunderstanding.

Driving at 100mph through a town center is dangerous to people.
Being unvaccinated and unmasked in a public place is ALSO dangerous to people.

It's not a fear of danger, it IS danger. There is an extremely contagious disease infecting millions of people which we as a human race are fighting to control. By being in public without being vaccinated or wearing a mask, you are putting others in danger. Just like if you were driving too fast.

People like myself have no issue at all with others taking the "vaccine" or not. Every grown up adult has their choice in such a situation, and we should all respect that. You're trying to convince people to give up on their freedom of choice, by comparing this to driving through a town center at 100mph.

This isn't a choice. It's not "your choice" to follow a speed limit. These things are put in place to protect you and the people around you.

You're making this sound like anyone has a choice here. The entire world is at war with this pandemic. We need to take active steps to defend ourselves from it. No-one wants to have to deal with this, but we don't have a choice. We need to do what we can to protect ourselves and the people around us.

I'm not trying to antagonize you, I'm just trying to help you understand. This isn't "a fear", it's a real danger. It has changed the entire world. How much more significant could it get? It's not something we can just ignore and pretend isn't an issue. The more people that act against it, the better we'll deal with it, and the quicker we can get it to fuck off.

That said, I do agree we're going in circles. I won't reply anymore today as I've got weekly goals that need to be hit, and this is taking up so much time. However, I will get back to you if there are any points you still think I'm sidestepping.

 

[DanielS]

This isn't "a fear", it's a real danger. It has changed the entire world. How much more significant could it get? It's not something we can just ignore and pretend isn't an issue. The more people that act against it, the better we'll deal with it, and the quicker we can get it to fuck off.

It's never going away- that's why people are against the whole "wear a mask and get vaxxed for the good of the people" message at this point. It's been nearly 2 years and people are still acting like it's day 1 and eventually COVID will not exist. This simply will not be/is not the reality.

So, keeping this in mind, the whole "it's just a little longer- do your part" messaging doesn't work any longer. The end game is the same no matter what- exposure to the virus and infections for everyone. The only way to avoid infection completely is to have no human contact and never leave your house.

I think old people should get vaccinated and those with comorbidities. But if you look at the data for deaths by age, it makes 0 sense for a young and healthy 27-year-old to get a booster every 3-6 months, wear a mask in public, and be locked inside the house for a month every quarter from now until the end of time.

"Oh, but this won't happen. When the virus is gone nobody will need to do these things!" It's not going away. It'll be held in the same regard as the common cold/flu and every year people who need a booster will get it and those who don't will gain immunity through infection. Hopefully, they can develop some vaccines that are more effective at preventing deaths for the elderly, but at what point do people stop and realize that the world simply cannot be locked down in a dystopian state permanently to protect old people. The aging process doesn't stop- there will always be more old people.

When I got my 2 doses I was promised things would go back to normal and I was good to go. Here I am in Canada in my 5th lockdown, still wearing a mask, etc. I understand things change, but my trust has been lost. There have been too many inconsistencies during this process for me to trust those in charge to make the choices that are in my best interest. "It'll be different this time- we promise!" They said that during lockdown #2 and they lied.

 

[Lloops]

Just watch what happens in the UK when election season starts, everything will start lifting so they can spin the "we beat COVID" narrative. You can almost guarantee the topic wont dominate the news half as much.

 

[MinstrelJunkie]

It's never going away- that's why people are against the whole "wear a mask and get vaxxed for the good of the people" message at this point. It's been nearly 2 years and people are still acting like it's day 1 and eventually COVID will not exist. This simply will not be/is not the reality.

So, keeping this in mind, the whole "it's just a little longer- do your part" messaging doesn't work any longer. The end game is the same no matter what- exposure to the virus and infections for everyone. The only way to avoid infection completely is to have no human contact and never leave your house.

I think old people should get vaccinated and those with comorbidities. But if you look at the data for deaths by age, it makes 0 sense for a young and healthy 27-year-old to get a booster every 3-6 months, wear a mask in public, and be locked inside the house for a month every quarter from now until the end of time.

"Oh, but this won't happen. When the virus is gone nobody will need to do these things!" It's not going away. It'll be held in the same regard as the common cold/flu and every year people who need a booster will get it and those who don't will gain immunity through infection. Hopefully, they can develop some vaccines that are more effective at preventing deaths for the elderly, but at what point do people stop and realize that the world simply cannot be locked down in a dystopian state permanently to protect old people. The aging process doesn't stop- there will always be more old people.

When I got my 2 doses I was promised things would go back to normal and I was good to go. Here I am in Canada in my 5th lockdown, still wearing a mask, etc. I understand things change, but my trust has been lost. There have been too many inconsistencies during this process for me to trust those in charge to make the choices that are in my best interest. "It'll be different this time- we promise!" They said that during lockdown #2 and they lied.

Backup your claims. Find me a source where you were "promised" that everything would go back to normal if you took a vaccine. Who told you that your actions had such massive impacts on society that you alone could stop covid by taking a vaccine?

No-one could promise you anything, because no-one is in control of this. Everyone is just doing the best they can. This isn't something we as a modern world have faced before. They need to keep these measures to avoid hospitals overflowing with sick people.

The world doesn't revolve around you. Yes, you took a vaccine and did your part (thank you for that). But the job's not done yet, and that's why they keep implementing measures. All of this causes tons of stress, harms the economy, and makes everyone's life more difficult. This isn't a game they're playing to fuck with you. This is a health service doing what it can to treat everyone, and asking you to do your small part to help. Asking you to 'suffer' through wearing a mask when in public, meanwhile doctors and nurses are working their assess off in full PPE gear to try and deal with the crisis.

Just watch what happens in the UK when election season starts, everything will start lifting so they can spin the "we beat COVID" narrative. You can almost guarantee the topic wont dominate the news half as much.

Next election is 2024 AFAIK. Still a good while away yet.

 

[Zach]

I don't know enough about who's taking what profit and to be honest, it doesn't matter.

I would argue this is one of the most important things to keep in mind. IT DOES MATTER - A LOT. I believe the reality we have here is a covid strain variant that is more and more calming down. Viral spread is most optimized when they don't kill the host - so they naturally evolve to be more harmless.

However, the companies will sure want these boosters to be a year-round "new trend". I'm leaning more towards military industrial complex ----> vaccine industrial complex as where this is going.

These companies will 1000% be incentivized the fan the flames of hysteria, all for profit of course. It's a great place to be as the owner of a major vaccine creator. Government mandated? Ye$ plea$e!

@MinstrelJunkie I applaud your in-depth analysis here, but I think you underestimate the fuckery that is going on and will continue to go on in these wild times. People (mainly companies) take advantage of turbulence like this. In an ideal world it's the science that leads the charge and that's the end of of it. We are not living in that clear-cut world.

I'm vaxxed, but a big skeptic of the fuckery moving forward.

 

[zelch]

Backup your claims. Find me a source where you were "promised" that everything would go back to normal if you took a vaccine. Who told you that your actions had such massive impacts on society that you alone could stop covid by taking a vaccine?

No-one could promise you anything, because no-one is in control of this. Everyone is just doing the best they can. This isn't something we as a modern world have faced before. They need to keep these measures to avoid hospitals overflowing with sick people.

The world doesn't revolve around you. Yes, you took a vaccine and did your part (thank you for that). But the job's not done yet, and that's why they keep implementing measures. All of this causes tons of stress, harms the economy, and makes everyone's life more difficult. This isn't a game they're playing to fuck with you. This is a health service doing what it can to treat everyone, and asking you to do your small part to help. Asking you to 'suffer' through wearing a mask when in public, meanwhile doctors and nurses are working their assess off in full PPE gear to try and deal with the crisis.


Next election is 2024 AFAIK. Still a good while away yet.

how about this. and this is just a small portion of the promises that were made:

 

[MinstrelJunkie]

how about this. and this is just a small portion of the promises that were made:

YIKES. Okay, didn't realise it was that bad in the US.

Where I'm from the message was "vaccination will help reduce symptoms and lower the chance you can get it. It's the quickest route to returning to normality." In other words, it's a massive help but it's not going to make you immune and fix everything.

That's pretty shocking reporting by them. Pretty ridiculous claims probably made early on with no proof. My bad on that one then. Unfortunately doesn't change the need for continued measures.

I would argue this is one of the most important things to keep in mind. IT DOES MATTER - A LOT. I believe the reality we have here is a covid strain variant that is more and more calming down. Viral spread is most optimized when they don't kill the host - so they naturally evolve to be more harmless.

However, the companies will sure want these boosters to be a year-round "new trend". I'm leaning more towards military industrial complex ----> vaccine industrial complex as where this is going.

These companies will 1000% be incentivized the fan the flames of hysteria, all for profit of course. It's a great place to be as the owner of a major vaccine creator. Government mandated? Ye$ plea$e!

@MinstrelJunkie I applaud your in-depth analysis here, but I think you underestimate the fuckery that is going on and will continue to go on in these wild times. People (mainly companies) take advantage of turbulence like this. In an ideal world it's the science that leads the charge and that's the end of of it. We are not living in that clear-cut world.

I'm vaxxed, but a big skeptic of the fuckery moving forward.

Fair points, I'm not clued up on any potential for them to incentivise boosters over a real cure. Don't know enough to comment but I'd be doubtful things could play out that way. In the UK it's government money that's used to buy the vaccines so there would be no interest in that kind of setup. And if other countries don't need it, then there's no justification for them to do that in the US.

What I have seen on this topic is people being shocked at how much money Pfizer & Moderna are making right now. In which case I'd say no shit - if you invented the cure the entire world needed to defend themselves against a virus, you'd be pretty loaded too.

That said I'm not looking to get involved in these topics. I'm just trying to stop misinformation about covid guidelines.

 

[zelch]

YIKES. Okay, didn't realise it was that bad in the US.

That's pretty shocking reporting by them. Pretty ridiculous claims probably made early on with no proof. My bad on that one then. Unfortunately doesn't change the need for continued measures.

Now you can see why there are is such a culture of distrust right now. Especially in the USA where you can see the government talking heads overselling the vaccine, overselling masks, overselling lockdowns, then not correcting their earlier claims. No factchecking allowed on those claims at all.

In fact, it was the opposite! If anyone called them out on it, the people speaking out were "factchecked" by fb/twitter/google and/or labeled a conspiracy theorist.

I'm not antivax at all but the way this has been sold to the public is so messed up. At best, it has been incompetence. Or truthspinning in order to get greater vaccine acceptance for the greater good. At worst it has all been a puppet show put on by bigPharma in order to make their billions. I don't know which it is, but many people prefer the latter. They go digging on telegram or similar network and dig in their heels even deeper as conspiracy theories abound.

 

[Jesse]

YIKES. Okay, didn't realise it was that bad in the US.

A lot of the culture of the United States centers around not trusting government because of how our nation was formed in the first place, and they just keep on giving us reasons to feel that way pretty much 24/7/365. They pretty much just say one thing and then turn around two months later and say the exact opposite on a regular basis.

I'll offer one pandemic-related example: Consider that our Surgeon General (head of public health in the United States) in February 2020 said the following on Twitter: "Seriously people - STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus." Months later, our government was trying to force mask mandates and similar.

They openly acknowledge that they lied to us on this point and offer an attempt at justification for doing so. From Slate on Dr. Fauci's involvement in that government-orchestrated lie:

In March 2020, as the pandemic began, Anthony Fauci, the chief medical adviser to the president of the United States, explained in a 60 Minutes interview that he felt community use of masks was unnecessary. A few months later, he argued that his statements were not meant to imply that he felt the data to justify the use of cloth masks was insufficient. Rather, he said, had he endorsed mask wearing (of any kind), mass panic would ensue and lead to a surgical and N95 mask shortage among health care workers, who needed the masks more.

The lie was, at least in part, to attempt to cover up the fact that our government completely botched pandemic preparation. Now they try to pass it off like they were justified in lying to everyone about it.

It's much like how they feel justified in lying about the vaccines and a wide range of other issues.

 

[Stewy]

In the UK it's government money that's used to buy the vaccines so there would be no interest in that kind of setup.

Government money is mainly taxpayer money: https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/key-questions/where-does-government-get-its-money

I'd consider reading up on micro and macroeconomics (and taxes) to understand who's really paying for the vaccines.

What I have seen on this topic is people being shocked at how much money Pfizer & Moderna are making right now. In which case I'd say no shit - if you invented the cure the entire world needed to defend themselves against a virus, you'd be pretty loaded too.

Mind enlightening us on how these vaccines are "the cure"?

The common cold doesn't even have a cure.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...o cure for the,yourself while your body heals.

So please... enlighten us.

I'm just trying to stop misinformation about covid guidelines.

Thank you so much for taking the time to preach the truth.

 

[MinstrelJunkie]

Now you can see why there are is such a culture of distrust right now. Especially in the USA where you can see the government talking heads overselling the vaccine, overselling masks, overselling lockdowns, then not correcting their earlier claims. No factchecking allowed on those claims at all.

Yeah, pretty shocking claims from them. Can understand where you guys are coming from on the 'promised' side of things. It was a totally different rhetoric here.

The lie was, at least in part, to attempt to cover up the fact that our government completely botched pandemic preparation. Now they try to pass it off like they were justified in lying to everyone about it.

Really don't know why they went for that. You can kind of see where he was coming from in trying to keep masks for medical staff, but that's totally the wrong way to go about it. They'd have been better off saying "masks are vital but we need to prioritise front line staff first". It's how it was handled here and it underlined the importance of masks and - while there was a bit of a panic - it made everyone want a mask rather than question the need for them.

Mind enlightening us on how these vaccines are "the cure"?

Knew it wasn't the best word to use, but didn't think you'd jump down my throat for it. We don't need to make this personal mate. Let me edit that to the best [tool/solution/defense] we have.

For the record, vaccines have 'cured' polio, tetanus, hepatitis, measles, whooping cough, and plenty more.

I'd consider reading up on micro and macroeconomics (and taxes) to understand who's really paying for the vaccines.

What I mean is that it's not like hospitals overpricing insulin to US patients who have no choice but to pay for it. The buyer here is an entire country, and the costs are big enough that I imagine they'll be strict as hell on what they're paying for. Yes it's taxpayer money being spent, but there's a finite amount of that and almost every country is hurting after paying the costs of putting their economy on lockdown.

That said that's just my opinion, I'm not that clued into the money side of things and don't claim to be.

 

[Jesse]

Really don't know why they went for that. You can kind of see where he was coming from in trying to keep masks for medical staff, but that's totally the wrong way to go about it. They'd have been better off saying "masks are vital but we need to prioritise front line staff first". It's how it was handled here and it underlined the importance of masks and - while there was a bit of a panic - it made everyone want a mask rather than question the need for them.

I have a little bit of time to kill, so I'll go into the situation in the United States a bit just to give more of an idea of how corrupt things are here.

As for the lie about masks, it may have been incompetence. They may have really believed that telling people that masks don't work and they shouldn't buy them wouldn't lead to a situation where half or more of people don't care about wearing masks in public. They may have really believed that flipping back and forth on something so critical, while admitting that they knew they were lying to the public, wouldn't completely destroy their credibility. For many people, it's not lost on them that this lack of credibility almost certainly impacted vaccination rates, for example.

If you want to get into the conspiracy theory side of things, they may have been doing as they were instructed by our pharmaceutical overloads, perhaps as a way to make the pandemic worse initially. This type of corruption is straightforward and common in the United States. Both the companies involved and the level of politicians involved have a long history of this type of corruption in the US, but we are obviously in no position to prove that this is what happened. For the sake of clarity, I'm also not saying that this is definitely what happened, only that it is definitely a possibility, as sad as that is.

Now if you're from somewhere that doesn't have this level of corruption, I wouldn't blame you for doubting the extent to which I've claimed that this is a possibility. I'm not really looking to go back and forth playing Internet debate footsies, but I'll offer this as an example of the same type of company (and maker of one of our major Covid vaccines) doing the same type of thing:

Let's go back to 2009-2010 for an example. Here are a few select quotes from: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/just...gest-health-care-fraud-settlement-its-history

WASHINGTON – American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer Inc. and its subsidiary Pharmacia & Upjohn Company Inc. (hereinafter together "Pfizer") have agreed to pay $2.3 billion, the largest health care fraud settlement in the history of the Department of Justice, to resolve criminal and civil liability arising from the illegal promotion of certain pharmaceutical products, the Justice Department announced today.

Bextra is an anti-inflammatory drug that Pfizer pulled from the market in 2005. Under the provisions of the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act, a company must specify the intended uses of a product in its new drug application to FDA. Once approved, the drug may not be marketed or promoted for so-called "off-label" uses – i.e., any use not specified in an application and approved by FDA. Pfizer promoted the sale of Bextra for several uses and dosages that the FDA specifically declined to approve due to safety concerns.

"The size and seriousness of this resolution, including the huge criminal fine of $1.3 billion, reflect the seriousness and scope of Pfizer’s crimes," said Mike Loucks, acting U.S. Attorney for the District of Massachusetts. "Pfizer violated the law over an extensive time period. Furthermore, at the very same time Pfizer was in our office negotiating and resolving the allegations of criminal conduct by its then newly acquired subsidiary, Warner-Lambert, Pfizer was itself in its other operations violating those very same laws. Today’s enormous fine demonstrates that such blatant and continued disregard of the law will not be tolerated."

Remember the name Mike Loucks. We'll come back to him in a moment.

The marketing here is that this fine was so huge and that they were very punished and justice was done and this will never happen again and blah blah blah. Their profit for 2010 was a little over $50 billion (https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/PFE/pfizer/gross-profit). They did not give one flying fuck about this slap on the wrist on any level whatsoever.

In the United States, we have "lobbying," which means bribing politicians and government officials. They spent a little over $13 million in reported lobbying efforts in 2010 (https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/clients/summary?cycle=2010&id=D000000138), but that's not the only component of this type of lobbying. Corruption also happens through simple hiring and pay that comes after the individual is out of government work where it doesn't have to be reported. If a government official does a company a favor, they can expect a cushy position being paid handsomely after the fact to the point that it's just taken as the fact of the matter in the US.

Remember Mike Loucks? Guess who he started working to defend in 2011? Select quotes from The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/05/business/05switch.html):

Michael K. Loucks was arguably the nation’s most influential prosecutor of health care fraud.

He racked up numerous convictions and mega-settlements in nearly a quarter-century, using whistle-blowers and secret grand juries to pressure major pharmaceutical and health companies into ending illegal practices like kickbacks to doctors and misuse of blockbuster drugs.

But a year and a half ago, Mr. Loucks, a Republican, left the United States attorney’s office in Boston after he was passed over for the top post and President Obama appointed a Democrat. Instead, Mr. Loucks joined Skadden, Arps last July, and has startled former allies by emerging in recent months as zealous a corporate defender as he was a prosecutor, complete with proposals seeking more lenient treatment for the medical companies he once vilified.

Federal ethics rules prohibited Mr. Loucks from any dealings with the United States attorney’s office in Boston for a year after his resignation, and he can never be involved in cases he investigated directly. But he is not barred from representing clients he once prosecuted on other matters, and his law firm’s roster includes some of the biggest companies he once investigated, including Pfizer, Merck, Schering-Plough, Bristol-Myers Squibb and Medtronic.

Cha-ching. I don't knock the hustle, so to speak. However, it's often difficult to imagine the level of government corruption in the United States if you haven't grown up in it. I've chosen this specific example just because it's health care related, but it happens all the time in every sector in the most brazen ways you can imagine.

 

[MinstrelJunkie]

I have a little bit of time to kill, so I'll go into the situation in the United States a bit just to give more of an idea of how corrupt things are here.

Damn, that whole setup is insane - especially that so much of it is related to healthcare. Appreciate the well-written explanation, really helps to understand the US perspective and mistrust of government. I had no idea it was that bad (or out in the open). Crazy they can then choose who to financially back in elections etc. Yikes.

 

[nothing]

So is it a stretch to consider that if your government is corrupt, especially when it comes to healthcare, that mindlessly parroting what governments say might be incorrect? That there might be an agenda?
Here in the UK having tried to force everyone to get the "vaccine" for the covid pass, they are now scrapping the covid pass. Apparently 90% have been "vaccinated" already.
You know damn well people aren't getting vaccinated "because it's about other people". People are inherently selfish. People can't even care enough about themselves not to become obese, let alone the impact obesity and diabetes has on the healthcare system, especially when those systems are public. Yet we are supposed to believe they only get "vaccinated" because of other peoples risk?
No.
They get it for the validation. The Facebook sticker. So they can still go to McDonalds. So they can make others see how virtuous they are (virtue signalling). People who virtue signal the most are the people who lack the most virtue.
On top of all this is the FACT that getting the "vaccine" doesn't even stop you from spreading it to those other people in the first place.

 

[Stewy]

Knew it wasn't the best word to use, but didn't think you'd jump down my throat for it. We don't need to make this personal mate. Let me edit that to the best [tool/solution/defense] we have.

Nothing personal. You said it's "the cure". I asked you to expand on that. Anything personal about that?

And remember, you're the one who said "I'm just trying to stop misinformation about covid guidelines."

 

[bernard]

For the record, vaccines have 'cured' polio, tetanus, hepatitis, measles, whooping cough, and plenty more.

They haven't cured the flu though.

Here's how I understand it:

The other vaccines work with different methods. They use incapacitated or weakened viral material. That means the immune system gets the real deal to create defenses against.

mRNA is not a typical vaccine, it only trains the immune system to recognise the spike protein, which is what the virus uses to attach itself.

Which means that when there is a variant like Omicron, which has mutations in its spike protein, then the mRNA vaxxes are out of luck, because the immune system have not been trained to recognise other features about the virus.

That can in fact make people who catch omicron worse off, because the immune system has been so primed on the front door, that it hasn't put a lock on the backdoor or barricaded the windows.

This is called "original antigenic sin" and is also what happens with influenza and how some of us got really ill in 2018, when a mutated flu was around.

Some people call the mRNA vaccines "immune stimulating therapy", instead of vaccines. Considering they don't do anything that normal vaccines do (long lasting, actually prevent spread), I would say that makes more sense.

 

[MinstrelJunkie]

Nothing personal. You said it's "the cure". I asked you to expand on that. Anything personal about that?

And remember, you're the one who said "I'm just trying to stop misinformation about covid guidelines."

Fair comment and good point.

They get it for the validation. The Facebook sticker. So they can still go to McDonalds. So they can make others see how virtuous they are (virtue signalling).

Is there any chance you didn't get the vaccine, and that could be why you're stereotyping so hard? In all of my social circles people are generally quick to get vaccinated to protect themselves and their loved ones. That isn't virtue signalling, that's watching the news and not wanting to become a statistic.

That image is ridiculous and doesn't belong on here. The only boxes that matter are the top three, and what's missing is the huge percentage differences the vaccine makes.

They haven't cured the flu though.

Agreed, I shouldn't have used the word cure and I didn't include Flu on that list for that reason.

Good points on the vaccine not being as much of a cure as traditional types. That being said, you need to back this up:

That can in fact make people who catch omicron worse off, because the immune system has been so primed on the front door, that it hasn't put a lock on the backdoor or barricaded the windows.

The quotes I gave in my last response to your Omnicron comments showed the vaccine helps protect against Omnicron. I get where you're coming from theoretically but this hasn't been reported with covid so far. Current medical advice is that people are not going to be better protected against Omnicron by skipping the vaccine.

 

[nothing]

The only boxes that matter are the top three

If dying from the vaccine itself "doesn't matter" then I don't know what else to say.
I also just can't understand the logic of

quick to get vaccinated to protect themselves and their loved ones

when the "vaccines" neither work as vaccines did (before they changed the definition of both herd immunity, and vaccine, right before the mRNA "vaccines" came out) nor stop you giving it to your loved ones.
You keep saying these are opinions and not facts, but they are literally facts. Even with 4 shots, you can still catch covid, still die from covid, still give covid to other people...yet you can still die from the vaccine itself. F A C T S.
If you truly believe that dying from the vaccine itself "doesn't matter" then you are clearly not afraid of death in which case...why get vaccinated at all?
Even the companies themselves don't call it a vaccine, they call it what it is, a therapeutic.
And no, I didn't get vaccinated. BECAUSE IT'S NOT A VACCINE.
If it worked like the polio vaccine (which I have) where if you get the vaccine, you can't get covid, therefore can't give covid to others, then I would have been one of the first to get it. But it's not.
You say my image doesn't belong here (not surprised, because it states facts you don't agree with) so here I am with another one that's relevant because in this thread you keep talking about herd immunity due to the vaccine.

Notice how they changed that just before the "vaccine" came out?

Then there's this. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/just...gest-health-care-fraud-settlement-its-history
Why would I take an untested (long term) new tech "vaccine" from a company that's been prosecuted by the US Justice department for fraud to the tune of $2.3billion?
Honestly, I hate attacking people but I think I'm done here. If you're too stupid to understand the same science you peddle, then it's completely pointless debating this stuff with you.
Welcome to the New World Order:

As for Omicron

"The quotes I gave in my last response to your Omnicron comments showed the vaccine helps protect against Omnicron."

Even Googling your own sentence leads to a completely different outcome LOL.

 

[janky]

I honestly think you guys are wasting too much time trying to prove your point about covid19.
After 2 years of covid19 everyone has his opinion about covid and it can't be changed easily (some posts on the internet won't change it).

Better do something productive and work on your businesses.
Sorry for the offtopic.

 

[MinstrelJunkie]

If dying from the vaccine itself "doesn't matter" then I don't know what else to say.

Unproven. Back up your claim (before you link to freak deaths, you should show the relevancy of these against the chance of death / chance to spread covid)

You keep saying these are opinions and not facts, but they are literally facts. Even with 4 shots, you can still catch covid, still die from covid, still give covid to other people...yet you can still die from the vaccine itself. F A C T S.

I've answered this in previous comments. While its still possible to get and spread covid, you are much less likely to get it, less likely to spread it, and you have it for a shorter period of time.

it states facts you don't agree with

It doesn't state facts, it's extremely biased and practically propaganda. It's deliberately obscuring the most important information and highlighting irrelevant claims to make a point. Just like the tyranny image you shared - doesn't belong on this forum.

Notice how they changed that just before the "vaccine" came out?

A new type of vaccine was developed so the definition needed changed. As you stated, this type is different than previous so it needs defined as such.

Even Googling your own sentence leads to a completely different outcome LOL.

Try reading the media articles or scrolling down to the gov/medical ones. From your first link, it's "inactivated" vaccines that aren't strong against Omnicron. They've amped up that headline for clicks. Pfizer, AstraZeneca, Moderna, Johnson work against Omnicron, especially with boosters.

Pfizer effectiveness against Omnicron

Why would I take an untested (long term) new tech "vaccine" from a company that's been prosecuted by the US Justice department for fraud to the tune of $2.3billion?

You can always take one of the other types that aren't Pfizer. Not sure what long term side effects you're expecting. I took it on the advice of essentially every medical body / qualified expert there is. The benefits massively outweigh the potential downsides.

Honestly, I hate attacking people but I think I'm done here. If you're too stupid to understand the same science you peddle, then it's completely pointless debating this stuff with you.

Not sure why you feel the need to call me stupid. I would respond but not going to lower this thread to that level. Doubtful that you hate attacking people given how quickly you've sent that out.

I honestly think you guys are wasting too much time trying to prove your point about covid19.

Really feel that, and you're right. Lost a lot of time this week, but this forum has given me so much - it sucks to see misinformation spread on it.

Two things to add @nothing - you call me stupid, but here you can't seem to understand basic statistics:

Yet when you google looking for news about how more fully vaccinated are suffering than non vaccinated, you get nothing, just pages of results about how the unvaccinated are dying by the droves. Literally LYING right now.

You're posting about how 49% of the ICU in Canada is made up of fully vaccinated people (51% including partially vaccinated).

According to you, that means "more fully vaccinated are suffering than non vaccinated". Canada is 83% vaccinated with at least 1 dose. That means the unvaccinated 17% are taking up 44% of the ICU.

That point flew over your head so much that, when you didn't find any news confirming your beliefs, you assumed everyone was 'Literally LYING right now' instead of checking yourself.

It's also interesting for someone so scared about side effects to be injecting medicines into themselves and recommending others follow suit:

Glad they helped your issue, but I'm wondering what comprehensive medical research you undertook to confirm there's no long term side effects?

Oh, wait. One quick google and what do we have here:

As of January 1, 2022, the experimental peptide BPC-157 is prohibited under the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) Prohibited List. Furthermore, this substance is not approved for human clinical use by any global regulatory authority and it may lead to negative health effects.

So not only are you injecting yourself with a substance not approved for human clinical use, you're recommending others do the same. Nice.

Got another image for you buddy.

 

[bernard]

I honestly think you guys are wasting too much time trying to prove your point about covid19.
After 2 years of covid19 everyone has his opinion about covid and it can't be changed easily (some posts on the internet won't change it).

Better do something productive and work on your businesses.
Sorry for the offtopic.

No, I agree, no one is going to change their mind about this topic at this point.

 

[nothing]

Quite a lot of research into peptides. And there's a HUGE difference between subcut injections (under the skin) and intramuscular injections. It's banned because it increases HGH in order to fix your body faster, which means it could be used to build muscle faster than your competitors. And, like all products that big pharma cannot patent, it is not recommended to take. You do realize the FDA exists to protect big pharma interests, right? I do find it funny you went through my post history to find an argument though.